Adding a 3rd Dimension To The Internet
Sir Joan Soane Museum
Space Popular is a multidisciplinary design and research studio founded in Bangkok in 2013 by Lara Lesmes and Fredrik Hellberg. Space Popular designs spaces, objects and events in both physical and virtual space, focusing on how the two spaces can come together. Working on virtual architecture for the internet as well as buildings, exhibitions, public art, furniture collections and interiors in Asia and Europe, Lara and Fredrik led the development of virtual architecture by designing the world's first virtual reality architecture conference. Space Popular is also one of the 15 studios that contributed to the 'Dezeen 15 Festival', which consists of 15 manifestos that present ideas that could change the world in the next 15 years.
Selin Uysal:
Even though graduated from AA in London, you founded Space Popular in Bangkok. How has Bangkok affected your career?
Fredrik Hellberg:
Bangkok has profoundly changed us. We founded Space Popular in 2013. We came to Bangkok in 2011. When we just graduated, we didn't have plans to set up a studio or even work together or start practicing, but over time we realized that we definitely needed to do this. The culture of Bangkok and Thailand has affected us in many different ways. In our opinion, Bangkok is a highly design-sensitive place in terms of space and objects. Thai architects and designers have inspired us as our friends over time. Also, in our opinion, Thailand is incredibly healthy; it has a very open spirit towards colors, foreign and strange things. It is possible to see this in any restaurant or street in daily life. We think we really feel and are influenced by this open and different spirit. During the years we were in Bangkok, we worked on interiors, furniture, projects, and competitions, and it is here that we started to speculate and think about the virtual world. We also teach here. Over the years we've focused entirely on Thailand and Bangkok as the place to see our work, meet people and space that influence us.
Selin Uysal:
What was your initial motivation for founding Space Popular? I mean were you thinking of some kind of architecture office or my design office? What was your first idea?
Lara Lesmes:
I can say that it started as an architectural office in the traditional sense. Before we even practically started, we were both thinking of a more unusual understanding of architecture, but when we started, we started by designing real buildings for competitions. A large part of our work consisted of architectural competitions. We've done this for a number of years when we were in Thailand, mixing interiors, center stage with festive architecture and etc... Eventually, we began to realize the possibility of an application operating in different realms or different forms of understanding, and so we started doing virtual projects. We started thinking and writing about virtual projects. As you probably noticed, we are also preparing a few exhibitions about it.
Selin Uysal:
By the way, it is a great chance that you discovered yourself and your understanding of design at the beginning. When I researched about you, I saw a lot of things. You work on a wide variety of projects, including exhibitions, installations, architecture, interior design and furniture design, you do a lot. I can also see that you have started doing virtual projects from the very beginning of your career. How did you discover virtual architecture and what was your first experience with virtual architectures?
Lara Lesmes:
Hmm, maybe we had a project very, very early on when we were thinking about virtual architecture—before anyone knew what it was.
Fredrik Hellberg:
Yes, I mean, we both share the same interest in spatial experience and the psychological impact of space. Obviously, the place of experience doesn't have to be physical for you to have a good experience. That's why we started work very early on our first virtual product, a global mortality database project, in 2013. 'The Cloud of Resilience '.
I have been doing research as a student since 2006. It's about non-digital virtual spaces and dream spaces. About how we experience dreams. How do we experience space while dreaming? I think about this experience.
There are virtual spaces that have never been built architecturally. So I did a research project looking at the history of unbuilt projects in New York. Even if these buildings do not exist physically, they exist virtually and have an impact on us. I mean, if we still know a lot of these and still think about them, that means we somehow have some experience with them. Then I did research on avatars and how we came together in virtual spaces in 2009 and 2010. It's easy to forget that there were a lot of games where people got together back then. For example, Second Life, which still exists today. A second life where you have an avatar, your social life in a virtual office and you live on a social platform. We tend to think that what is happening now is something very new. But of course, the virtual world has been around for a very long time. So we were doing research on that too.
Adding 3rd Dimension To The Internet
Selin Uysal:
How do you see virtual architecture in the future? What can you say about Architecture and Metaverse?
Lara Lesmes:
Yes, I mean, frankly, the internet is already a big part of our lives. If you only go back 15 years, you can see that life was not so good without the internet. Now, I think we understand that there is a lot going on online. These are so intertwined with our daily lives. So lately we really try to avoid using the word Metaverse as it makes it seem like all this is new. Instead, we try to use the word immersive internet or immersive web. We think that's what's happening right now with what people call web 3.0, we're adding a third dimension. We now have the possibility to experience three-dimensional space through new forms of hardware. Today, we have new possibilities that allow us to work in three-dimensional space through digital tools. In fact, that's what happens to a lot of people. So this research and virtual reality itself has been around for decades, but it's now available to everyone. It's called the Metaverse as if it's something new, but we think it's just an evolution of the internet. In other words, we can access the internet in three dimensions.
Of course, the fact that the internet has gained a third dimension and that we can access the spatial side online means that this has become an architectural problem and that spatial problems must be solved with architecture. There are also some really incredible opportunities to explore the place, but there are also many problems with that. That's why we're both cautious and excited at the same time.
We think that the presence of architects in the design of these worlds will be very important to create good, comfortable, and quality spaces. I'm sure that as we get older, we will start to spend a lot of time in the sandbox. However, there is one aspect that we think is quite important. The design of the virtual space is similar to the design of a game or contains a lot of interaction and gameplay elements. So it's only natural for us to think of it as a game, as most people think on the first try, the first months, or the years.
Of course, we argue that just as buildings should be designed, it's important to start thinking about the design of spaces, which architecture becomes a crucial background element here. The virtual world exists to create a context for many different things to happen. It doesn't need to guide you the way a video game does. That's why we think that architectural thinking can be very important in the creation of these spaces.
Selin Uysal:
Actually, I was thinking of asking you such a question. I understand you don't like the word Metaverse.
Lara Lesmes:
We have to use it because there is no other way. Now people call it that. We just want to point out that in this way they make the virtual world look like a new product. Also, it's just something someone like the internet could use on their own but let's call it the Metaverse as if it's something new. This is what everyone is doing right now.
Architecture Should Create Context In The Virtual World
The Venn Room - Talinn Architecture Biennale
Selin Uysal:
You've been working on this for years, but maybe it wasn't named until Facebook changed its name to 'Meta', it wasn't that popular. This topic became so popular with Facebook that people started saying, "I discovered something in the Metaverse ." Today, we see that many expensive lands are sold on many different platforms. People buy those lands, but as far as I can see, architecture and design are not a priority on these lands.
At this point, who do you think should design these lands? How will architects or interior designers adapt to designing this virtual world? What do you think about who will be responsible for the design of this world?
Fredrik Hellberg:
Yeah. This is an interesting point in the history of the disciplines because historically, architects were involved with new technology and in some cases needed new technology. Until now, architects, designers, or interior designers have never been involved in the development of the virtual space. It was developed by other segments of society i.e. people in the gaming industry or the movie industry. They developed all the tools, the whole methodology, and the whole design intent. So in a way, we really hope that architects or designers have a role to play in this new field and have something to offer, but right now it's kind of weird. Because most architects or designers don't even know the Metaverse, what it is, or how to start an education. Obviously, there is a lot in common between the creation of spaces and architecture here, but there is also a lot of new in the virtual space. The possibility that virtual space will offer possibilities that a physical space cannot offer, right? That's why we think places like 'decentraland' are a good example. Because these are some of the worst virtual spaces and just because they are, they are driven by money. They exist to trade, not to be truly experienced.
Lara Lesmes:
We can call these channels an option as “betting opportunities”. Maybe even more interesting; I mean, you buy land, maybe the price goes up and you make money. It's basically like making money at a casino, but I don't think it promises much. Looks like they're just starting out with programming and something is going to start happening. They started programming virtual real estate as a form of artificial scarcity, but it's just a form of profit and business opportunity creation. However, there are more interesting examples. Maybe social VR platforms like VR Chat offer platforms designed for people with the necessary equipment to come together and experience the world together. That's the motivation, isn't it? That's when people can act with the motivation to create space together, and I think these are much more interesting examples. At this point, we can see many more interesting examples of architecture. Because the motivation is really to get there and be with other people. Trading or selling on social VR platforms was not originally in the plan. In fact, motivation is really all about creating a spatial context to get together with others. So if there is a place to look at architecture, architectural design, I think it will be social VR programs, not virtual real estate sites. I don't think there's anything very interesting going on around here right now, but maybe soon.
Selin Uysal:
So, who is making the designs on these architectural platforms right now?
Lara Lesmes:
Someone who can make a 3D model
Fredrik Hellberg:
In fact, the world is full of people capable of creating these kinds of things. Doing so requires skill and knowledge of certain programs. Most people don't know this or people who do it have a background in gaming or creating 3D designs. In fact, this is increasingly seen as some form of advertising or game experimentation. Obviously, someone is designing them, right? I think it's important for architects and designers to be open to a wider range of different expressions if they're going to have a role to play in this. And architects and designers can no longer claim to be the only ones who can create spaces or create objects. Many other spaces in a virtual world, as you might see in places like this, "maybe they don't look that good” but they are designed by others. If architects come and start telling everyone what is good and what is bad, then the designers in this world may not accept architects in their midst. In fact, they build the virtual world just like us. So maybe architects are not needed here at all, just as you don't really need an architect to build a building. The building would probably be better if you work with an architect, but you can't build with a builder. In virtual spaces, this has gone much further, architects have never been involved in the construction of platforms or architects don't yet know how they work. That's why as architects we need to be open and humble. Maybe we have a place and a role there, but let's face it, most architects are not open to this.
Lara Lesmes:
I also think that architects should respect what is done and learn from it. That's why I think it's so important to act respectfully, by observing and learning, rather than violating. You know, again in virtual spaces, designing a building is very different because there's really no need for that right now. That's why architects need to prove themselves that they have something to say and something to add to it.
Selin Uysal:
So in this case, I'm going to ask how the post-Metaverse architecture will change. Do you think it will have devastating effects on the architectural profession?
Fredrik Hellberg:
I think no, no, no, absolutely not. Because we're already seeing a lot of architects start to try it and start thinking about it. It's just a new way to diversify your thinking about the space. And of course, we, Space Popular, are an example. There are a lot of people designing sandboxes right now. So in the long run, of course, it can only have a positive effect. It is also important to see that architecture as a profession has never been stable. Architecture is constantly changing. Just 150 years ago, architecture as a profession did not exist in many parts of the world. The architecture was historically a relatively new profession, often there were architects or someone else who could design a building. You can see it at the top in the 50s, 60s and etc... When architects got really involved in building the modern world after the war, it may have been the pinnacle for the profession, but we're not at it anymore. The world is constantly changing. This is normal as things change as well. We can also say that as more and more people start to truly involve their lives in the virtual world of the Metaverse will inevitably begin to be regulated by governments. When you start to think this is going to be really important, maybe they turn to bigger companies. In decades, they might go to people who designed the space, like architects, rather than game companies. Maybe there will be a moment in the next 10 to 30 years or something like that when architects become very relevant to the Metaverse.
Meta Become A Furniture Company After 10 Years
Selin Uysal:
In this case, I think a new title of architecture will emerge, like 'Metaverse architects' or, I don't know, 'virtual designers'...
Lara Lesmes:
I mean, I don't think there's any point in making the distinction. To be honest, I don't see much difference other than what I'd usually call landscape and non-landscape, because I really think it takes a lot of special qualities for landscaping. Even here, understanding the context and who has what skill set will make a difference. As for the Metaverse, I'm not sure how useful tags would be. Because you will need different types of architects for different reasons. Of course, this seems like a new form of specialization right now, and there are already people who call themselves 'Metaverse architects'...
Fredrik Hellberg:
People will do this by naming themselves based on what was popular at the time, such as in a particular place. If you say you're a beach house architect, you can probably expect to get beach house projects. Likewise, obviously, now that this has been very popular lately, as we've seen in many applications, some architects specifically rename themselves Metaverse Architects because they are trying to be tempted to take on this type of project. Probably naturally there will be some people who just work in a virtual environment and some people who do both. Of course, we hope as many people as possible will do both because any virtual experience will always exist in both physical reality and virtual reality because your body will always be in the physical world, even if you're wearing a headset. So ideally we have a design consideration of where you are both visually and where your body is at the same time. Of course, we now see that the design of all hardware is designed by tech companies, not gamers, designers or architects. Right now it usually doesn't matter. They pack the product in a box and ship it to your home, that's it! Then you wear it and experience the entire virtual world with that device. It doesn't matter if your house is suitable for it or not. We're seeing companies like Meta and many others, the people who are part of this project, really starting to think about whether users' homes fit into this experience. So I wouldn't be surprised if Meta becomes a furniture company after 10 years.
Selin Uysal:
Another issue is the moral side of the business. You have published eight proposals for civilian portals in the infrastructure of the virtual environment. I must say that each one is very important, but if I were to ask you to choose three of them, which would you choose and why?
Fredrik Hellberg:
I think I would choose the "urban, inclusive and cheap" trio.
Fredrik Hellberg:
I choose to be inclusive first because we think it is more important that all people, or as many people as possible, have access to it. How awesome the virtual world looks and how incredible it feels to experience are less important than people's access to it. Just think about the early days of the internet. In order to use the internet, we had to have a computer first, but computers were very expensive. Then the government (at least where I grew up) put computers in libraries. People first experienced the internet here. At first, they brought a library desk and three cheap computers. The aim was to provide access to the internet. So it was an inclusive way for as many people as possible to reach it, but that's not the case in the virtual world. We don't see governments buying VR headsets and shipping them to us. Maybe they should, but it's certainly not high on the list right now.
Secondly, the city needs to have some kind of urban infrastructure . Of course, this is not something that is a problem in different parts of the world. Maybe you don't want the government to control the Metaverse, but we need to start seeing examples of governments’ regulating and thinking. The Metaverse is a completely free world where everything is controlled by the companies that own all the money here.
Third, cheapness, which is also a proposition that encompasses inclusivity and reliability. Creating virtual worlds that look incredible and very similar to our exhibits is easy here. It is enough to have a very high-quality VR headset and a powerful computer, but we think these will consume a lot of energy in the future. That's why they have to be cheap. In other words, they should be accessible from places where the internet connection is not very strong, and they should be purchased cheaply. What we mean is that there shouldn't be polygons that hold the competitive edge.
Selin Uysal:
I get it, it's all connected. Lara, do you agree with Fredrik?
Lara Lesmes:
We can talk more, but I agree.